Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Some people are just ahead of the curve. They help inspire megatrends that come to define a generation. They know how these trends can capture the zeitgeist and shape societies. Ian Rogers is one of those luminaries, an early pioneer of the internet and digital music. Ian sees the future before it happens, after revolutionizing the world of music with beats and Apple. Ian spent five transformative years as Lv m H's, chief Digital Officer, now as a Chief Experience Officer Ledger. He's leading the way in the world of Web three. Talking to Ian is like talking to someone with a crystal ball. He gives us deep rich insights on NFTs crypto and the future of the internet. He talks about his love for the digital world, creators and creativity. The conversation is enlightening and engaging. I'm journalist Te Van Nuka. Welcome to the Edge, A podcast by tag Hoyer in Rogers, chief Experiencing Officer at leisurer. Thank you so much, uh, for joining me at the Edge. Very excited to have you here. Can you maybe tell us a little bit about your career progression and how you came to be Chief Experience Officer of Ledger?
Speaker 2 00:01:11 Sure. I mean, I'm old, so it's a bit of a long story, but the short version is I, I studied computer science, um, and this was, you know, in the early nineties, and it was the early days, um, of the, of the internet for me. I started building applications on the internet around 1990. I built some of the first music applications, um, on the web second ever music related website when there were like five of us on, on the worldwide web, uh, for the, in Indiana University Music Library. It was, you know, quite academic in in those days. But we were also doing a, a, a research project to move the, the, um, reserve listing materials at the music library from like vinyl and cassettes and compact discs behind the desk to work stations throughout the library. So inadvertently as a, as a research project at university, I built sort of the, the first Spotify, um, in the early nineties, really pre-web.
Speaker 2 00:02:05 And then it was kind of Groundhog Day for me from that point forward. I, I was, you know, part of a, a small startup called Neilsoft that made a popular MP3 player called WIN App in the late nineties. I built Yahoos, um, subscription music service in the early nineties. We launched that in May of 2005. Um, I was a C E O Beats music and built a subscription music service with Dr. Dre and Trent Resner and Jimmy Iovine. We sold that company to Apple. And, um, I led the team that built Apple Music at, at Apple, and so a 20 year career in, in digital music. And we really went from science fiction, which it was in the early nineties, um, to having digital music on every iPhone, which was, you know, super fun and like, honestly like a career in and of itself, especially because, you know, the internet was a roller coaster.
Speaker 2 00:02:50 You know, when we had the, all the ups and downs of the.com bubble and, and, and burst and, and digital music itself was, you know, a bit of a, a bloodbath. A lot of companies, you know, didn't make it. And I, and I was lucky enough to have three good outcomes, you know, throughout those years, you know, but I, I didn't know what to do next. And, um, I got a call from L V M H and they wanted a Chief Digital Officer, and I didn't know really anything at all about L V M H, and I didn't know what it meant to be a Chief Digital Officer, but, you know, I kind of, I just double clicked on it and did my research. And for me, I, I had, I saw this opportunity to kind of take what I'd learned in 20 years of digital music and to see if it applied elsewhere.
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Um, I realized over the years that what I had become was a student of how technology is changing culture. Um, you know, a lot changed o over those years. It wasn't just like music went from being on compact discs to being streamed. You know, we actually, you know, with with that, you know, you change, you know, when I grew up, what I experienced was limited to what was on the radio, what was on television, what was at the magazine rack. And now, you know, anybody could watch anything, any time of day on YouTube. You know, like the world, you know, literally changed. And I, and, and I could see that brands were experiencing that. But, you know, I, I only knew it kind of from the music brand perspective, and I saw a really interesting opportunity to understand that from, from a broader cultural perspective through, um, through brands such as L V M H.
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Uh, so I took that and, you know, and, and really enjoyed it. I mean, I think it's, you know, part of the reason I'm, I'm speaking to you here today, um, and I still work with L V M H, I still consult for, for L V M H. I'm still on the board at Dr. Martin's. So I still have one foot in the, in the kind of digital fashion space. I'm also on the board of a, a startup called List, L Y S t mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, you know, so I keep my, I keep a foot in that digital fashion world, have a couple personal investments in some, uh, in some web three fashion companies, because I think it's a, a really interesting and, and exciting space. But, you know, I I, I saw a different opportunity with, with Ledger. Um, you know, I, I really believe that, you know, the internet was this revolution of information, you know, information was going from locked behind gatekeepers to, you know, freed in a way.
Speaker 2 00:05:14 Um, I think that there's something else happening now, and that's a, a revolution of value. I don't, I'm not really a big fan of kind of web two versus web three as monikers, because I think they, you know, one, it sounds like sort of an incremental change. Um, and it's not really like a revolution of value is kind of fundamentally different than a revolution of information. Um, and what I, what I came to believe was that, you know, digital assets will be a big part of humanity. Um, and I think that's not really obvious or a foregone conclusion to a lot of people. Um, you know, just like in the year 2000 after the.com bubble burst, there were a lot of people who thought, oh, this internet thing is for geeks and probably won't take off. And, you know, everyone will, will never have broadband.
Speaker 2 00:05:58 And, you know, there were a lot of thoughts along those lines. But today, you know, the, the internet is is com is, you know, is completely synonymous with human culture. You know, I mean, even in 2008, people would say, oh, you know, everyone's never gonna have a smartphone. Um, you know, but, but the reality is, is that, you know, it's very difficult to, um, you know, to, to exist with without, uh, an email address or, or a smartphone. And you've got 6.5 billion of them on, on the planet. Well, I see something very similar with digital assets. You have this, um, you have this new human invention, scarce digital goods, and, you know, ultimately your passport will be a digital document. And the way that you move borders is you prove that you are the owner of the wallet that contains that digital document. So, you know, I, I believe that there'll be more digital assets tomorrow than there were yesterday, um, for a whole bunch of reasons.
Speaker 2 00:06:50 And I also think, though, that because you have digital things that you could lose, security is a really, um, it'll be a big challenge for humanity. So for me, I looked at, at Ledger and I said, okay, this, you know, the only, I don't, you don't have to believe any particular crypto narrative to believe in Ledger. You don't have to believe in the Bitcoin narrative. You don't have to believe in the Ethereum narrative. It helps if you do, because it helps you get your head around what the possibilities might be. Um, you know, but you just have to believe that there will be digital assets and that security will be a problem. Um, and so that's why, you know, I kind of threw my, my opportunity cost in with, in with Ledger, um, because I see, you know, really an Apple sized opportunity with, uh, with this company. So I, I joined here almost two years ago now, January of 2021. Um, like I said, still working with L V M H and still have my f my my, you know, feet in the digital fashion world, because I'm, I'm passionate about it, and I believe in it. Um, but the opportunity to create, you know, a horizontal which solves, um, you know, gigantic problems in this space is, uh, is super exciting. And that's, that's how I ended up here at Ledger.
Speaker 1 00:08:01 Brilliant. Thank you. That was amazing. Whistle, whistle. Stop tour. Um, I do, I, I, I think it's really interesting, um, hearing what you're saying about this idea of cryptocurrency, like digital assets becoming a thing that we all engage with. I think for a lot of people listening to this podcast, I mean, certainly for me too, um, it feels like a, a distant future that we don't fully understand. What, what in real terms, does it mean for day-to-day people, um, kind of now?
Speaker 2 00:08:30 Well, I, I think, I mean, again, the best analogy to think about here is to think about, you know, what the internet meant in people's lives in the early two thousands. Hmm. Um, you know, it was, it, it really wasn't something that you sort of had to participate in. It was something you, you kind of had the opportunity to participate in. And I'd say that, you know, it's the same thing with digital assets today. Um, you know, there's a, there's a lot of ways to participate in, I mean, it's actually quite fun. Um, you know, just to, I'm, I'm, I'm yet to meet an intelligent person who pokes their head into this rabbit hole and comes out, you know, unchanged, right? The notion, you know, that, that you have, you know, digital scarcity layered on top of humanity that has 6.5 billion smartphones, and, um, spends a lot of their time in borderless online worlds.
Speaker 2 00:09:20 You know, I don't, I don't know what, what your calendar looks like, but mine is basically moving from micro verse to micro verse to micro verse all day. And those micro verses are called Zoom and Google meet, you know, they're not called sandbox, but you know, that's exactly what I'm doing, right? I mean, what do I do? I leave one meeting where, you know, there's three people in the room and four people on the screen. I'm moving to this room, and there's four of you on the screen, and here I am, and you and I have this conversation for 45 minutes, and then at 1:00 PM I'll be in a different virtual micro verse with some other people, right? So, you know, we, we spend, you know, eight to 12 hours a day worth of our attention in these borderless worlds, um, you know, with, and of course, those worlds will have their own economies.
Speaker 2 00:10:06 Um, and, and whether that's, you know, the kind of, the, the same thing, um, that, uh, you know, that, that, that it's the same, uh, you know, kind of human instinct that, that that makes you wanna buy a, a, a Dior handbag, you know, would make you buy, you know, a Mera flower, uh, N F T. Right? You know, so do I need a Mera flower, N F T? Uh, I don't, I don't, I don't need it for any reason. Um, you know, do I, do I buy a Dior handbag for its incredible utility? Uh, no, I don't. Um, you know, they, they're, they sort of, you know, they, they, but they serve the same purpose, which is, you know, they a, it's fun, it's beautiful. Um, it makes me a part of a, a group of people that I want to be a part of.
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Um, it shows, you know, who I am, what I care about, that I care about art, um, you know, and it shows that I'm in the know that I'm mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that I'm part of, uh, you know, a group of people who are on the leading edge. You know, I think that there's a lot of utility going forward, though. Um, you know, I think it's, you know, again, the notion that, that, that the technology that I used to get into parties at N F nft, N YC is a more advanced technology than what I used to get into the country. You know, that gap always gets closed. You know, when I go to the local vegetable stand here in Paris, um, who by the way, prior to covid would only take cash, and now post Covid doesn't take cash, right? Um, and I pay with, with Apple Pay, and there's a 3% tax, which is paid by the merchant for using a credit system, which doesn't need to be used, right?
Speaker 2 00:11:49 We have international digital cash settlement on things like the Bitcoin Lightning Network, um, that could be used and would be more efficient, and would be, and would remove cost for the retailer. I mean, we know what happens over time when there are people in the value chain who aren't adding value, and you have better technical solutions. You know, oftentimes it, it takes a long time, right? You know, these things, the, you know, the, the, the, um, department of Motor Vehicles was not the first, they were not the first people to embrace the internet. Um, you know, but, but it's fully embraced at this point, right? Um, so I think that same thing will happen, you know, over the next 15 years. You know, superior technologies win. You know, there's never in human history been a case where technology has been invented and not used. You know, you have many cases where, you know, progress has been retarded for one reason or another.
Speaker 2 00:12:44 You know, I suppose by the law of, of supply and demand, the American steel industry should have gone away a long time ago. Um, but, you know, generally speaking, you know, better and superior technologies, you know, take hold and, and, and this will be no different, you know, I mean, in, in, in the nineties when we were doing digital music, there were plenty of people who were like, why do we need this? We have radio, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, but we're, we're at, I mean, that's actually like a, there's a, there's a famous, um, you know, interview of Bill Gates on David Letterman that you can find on YouTube where that's exactly what Letterman says to Bill Gates when he tells him about the internet. You know? So I, I, I, under, I understand when people are doubtful, but I mean, frankly, I don't care.
Speaker 2 00:13:28 These things are inevitable. They, they happen with or without me or you. Um, and also future generations will, will drive this and demand this. You know, when people tell me, you know, you know, oh my God, I don't want, you know, kind of my, whatever it is, my art, my whatever, to be digital. You know, my response is, okay, fine. Like, eventually you'll be dead. And there will be, you know, people who are 15 years old today, and they've grown up with digital everything they did part of their schooling on Zoom, they, um, interface with their friends in virtual worlds and where they have digital belongings. And by the way, that's no more absurd than buying an expensive watch. You know? I mean, if, if I, you know, I, nobody buys an expensive watch, because it's better at telling the time that's, you know, that's not a motivator at all.
Speaker 2 00:14:22 Um, you, you know, you, you buy it because it's a, it's an object of beauty. It's created with craft. And by the way, there's a lot of digital art, which are objects of beauty and created with craft, and they have a community built around them. So, I mean, what is a, what is a, a luxury watch? It's an object of beauty. It's created with craft. There's a, there's a community built around it, digital versus physical. Like, for anyone listening who still has that barrier in, in their head, lose it. You sound like you're a hundred years old if you say, yeah, but it's digital. Um, like, honestly, what are you talking about? Um, yes, it was created with craft crafted in Switzerland. I understand. Um, also though, I can show you, you know, many digital art projects, which are made by artisans, um, who have perfected their craft over a lot of years.
Speaker 2 00:15:13 Many of them have come from the traditional art world and moved from oil painting and et cetera, to, you know, to digital craft. And it, and it's craft. And you've got craft and a community. And this digital versus physical thing, if anything, I would argue digital will will probably win that war. And the, you know, the reason is, think about this. You know, I used to, you know, I used to shoot on phy on, on real film, on with a film camera, and I'd shoot with a film camera in the mid nineties even. I was on the internet, but I shot with a film camera. I even had one of the first digital cameras, 1995, the Apple Quick Pick. I was on tour with the Beastie Boys and shooting with this terrible digital camera in 1995. The photos were terrible, but I was, you know, we were able to like, walk out on stage, take a photo, walk backstage, and upload the photo to the internet over a modem.
Speaker 2 00:16:00 And no one had done that before. Mm. So even though the photo quality was terrible, we still did it. But I would, in my daily life, I would take, I would take photos with a film camera, and then I would go have the, have them developed under contact sheets, and I'd take them home, and I would like circle the ones I wanted with a red grease pencil. And then I'd go back to the, um, to a and I photo in Santa Monica, and I would print them out on sloppy borders. So like, the five people who came to my apartment could see them. Right? Okay. Um, you know, all right, you know, now think about kids today who post a photo on Instagram, and if they don't get a hundred likes in an hour, they take it down. Right? Think about that now with your watch collection versus your, your digital luxury collection, right?
Speaker 2 00:16:43 I have, um, you know, some very nice watches that are in a safe deposit box. I'm not getting any offers on those. I'm not able to show them off to anyone. Um, okay. I guess my kids will inherit them all. All right. That's nice. Um, now imagine if that digital collectible, which was also created, you know, with craft, was, um, in my ledger wallet and protected, you know, ledger, but also shown off in the public, and people could see that I own it, and people could make offers on it if it was something they wanted to buy. You know, that's, that's the world that we're headed for. And, you know, so I think people make this kind of fake physical versus digital distinction. And I think they actually have it the reverse. You know, digital is probably going to have more value. I have a Louis Vuitton Supreme skateboard case.
Speaker 2 00:17:29 There's fewer than 20 of them on the planet. It's in a closet where no one can see it or experience it or benefit from it, or make an offer on it. Or imagine if that thing was, you know, sitting out there on the internet, it was displayed on my gallery page, which exists, gallery.so/ncr. What if it, what, what if that Louis Vuitton supreme skateboard case was there, where anyone could see it? They could link from my Twitter profile or my email signature, you know, straight to that gallery and see that futon Supreme skate case and, and go, oh, wow, you've got one of those. Or, you know, maybe it's, uh, somebody who really, really, really wants it and understands that there's fewer than 20 of them on the planet, and they make an extraordinary offer that I decide to accept today. You know, this is the world that, that, that we're headed for.
Speaker 2 00:18:17 And actually, I think that, you know, luxury growths, world of watches, et cetera, even though sometimes they're most resistant to this kind of reality, they're actually will be the most impacted over time, and they have the most to gain. You know, I have, I wear every day my, my, my tag, um, connected watch. Uh, I change the N F T based on, you know, what I'm wearing. I actually meant to change this today. Cause I have one with a nice pink background, not my sweater, better <laugh>. Um, you know, but, uh, very nice. But, but actually the, you know, having the NFT feature on this watch has, has changed my relationship with it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, because I now really, I know I engaged with the watch far more. Um,
Speaker 1 00:19:00 Really, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 You know, and, and it means more to me, this is actually a one of one, no one else has the watch I'm wearing right now, because I'm the only person who owns this nft. Right? Yeah. Um, you know, if, when I, when I see, you know, Ben, I don't know, and I've had this conversation where I'm like, yes, your watch might be a one of 50, even a one of, you know, 25. I don't know. Mine is a one of one, and it means a lot to me, and I can, and I can change it, you know, day to day. Um, and that's, that's real. You know, this is not, you know, this is, you know, whatever we could, you know, whether you like it or not is meaningless. It's, you know, it is a, it has meaning in a community of people, which I am a part of, therefore, it means something to me. Um, and that, that's I think, where this, where this goes.
Speaker 1 00:19:51 I guess the big challenge then is kind of convincing the market at large and the public at large. I know we're saying that, you know, the next generation will be doing it automatically because it's what they'll know. But in the immediate, how do we kind of, um, how does one motivate the wider public to kind of get involved and understand better what you are doing and why it has meaning?
Speaker 2 00:20:13 My my point of view is, is that, um, I don't want to, right. Um, I honestly don't care. Uh, I think it's inevitable. You know, I, I, you know, even at Ledger, I really feel like it's not our place at all, um, to kind of convince people of this or bring people into Web three. You know, we personally, I operate under the belief that it's inevitable, and, and people will find their way here eventually, but they find their way here because lots of people make great applications, you know, along the way, you know, Ticketmaster has quietly, uh, delivered, you know, 5 million NFTs in, in, in the year 2022. Um, you know, and then you've got, you know, some people find their way in through things like NBA top shots. You know, Nike just released their piece. I think that many brands will bring people into the space kind of unknowingly, you know, Starbucks is changing the backend of their system, uh, to be blockchain based.
Speaker 2 00:21:04 And so, you know, look at how many people already have Starbucks cash, and you know, that next, like coupon or perk they receive will actually be an nft, but they don't need to call it an nft. Instagram has now launched Digital Collectibles. Um, they don't call them NFTs, they're called Digital Collectibles. Um, it's us only phenomenon right now, but it's incredible what it, what Instagram is doing. They're launching with, with great artists like RFI Canol, um, or Diana Sinclair has a, has one that's live right now that I bought two nights ago. A beautiful, beautiful image launched on Instagram. Um, and, you know, and, and it's a, it's a piece of art. You're talking about an artist who has, you know, sold, sold in major auction houses, um, who is now able to, instead of just post her art on Instagram and have, um, you know, and, and, and kind of have to give it away in an ad supported model for which she receives no re remuneration, um, she can go to her audience and say, you know, if you'd like to own one of my pieces, here it is.
Speaker 2 00:22:00 It's quite easy to own. Um, and, you know, and, and, you know, and, and that will, that's what will draw people in. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it's all of these, uh, you know, the, these use cases, you know, over time that'll draw people in. I don't think we need to convince people of it at all. You know, there's a certain type of person that'll be drawn to it early, and that's someone like me who's, I'm, I'm a nerd. I, I'm a record collector. I'm, I'm, I'm always been a member of niche communities like skateboarding and punk rock. Like, I'm, I'm kind of built for this. I, I, I acknowledge that other people find their way in cuz they're fans of, you know, basketball, football, whatever, and they understand kind of like trading cards and, and that sort of thing, you know, o other people. Um, you know, I think that's where Instagram is quite interesting because you've already got, you know, critical mass of people who are following, whether it's artists or influencers or whomever, you know, there's already an ecosystem there.
Speaker 2 00:22:54 And, you know, if you think about it, like the opportunity to move from an ad only supported model to a model, which is frankly much closer to what L V M H is built around, you know, L V M H is, um, you know, one of the greatest companies on the planet then, I don't know, is, is, you know, one of the wealthiest people in the world. Um, but their investment thesis is very simple. Their investment thesis is, we add operational efficiency to creativity. Okay, well, you know, that can work in the digital space as well. And if you think about what's, you know, what's possible, um, on Instagram, you know, I, I joke with my friends at Instagram. I'm like, look, your current business model is we steal people's attention and sell it to someone else. <laugh>, you know, now in the future, a part of your business model is going to be a value exchange between a creator and a patron.
Speaker 2 00:23:43 Mm. Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. And it doesn't involve the word steal, right? So the, the notion that like, NFTs are a scam, and somehow Facebook and Instagram are great businesses. I don't buy it. Not, not in the slightest, you know, when, when the product is free, you are the product. What if instead you could volunteer to have a, a patron relationship with, with a creator that you love? Mm. You know? Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe it's not for everyone, but it will be for a lot of people, I promise you the exact same, um, you know, impetus that, you know, causes someone to line up to buy, you know, a limited edition watch from Tag will, um, cause them to line up to, you know, buy a piece of art from an artist they love who is selling it on Instagram. You know, that's, that's inevitable.
Speaker 2 00:24:34 I don't, I don't need to do anything to make that happen. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's very natural. You know, like Clayton Christensen says, there are no new human problems. We just hire new technologies to solve old problems. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this fits in, you know, there's not a new human behavior here. The idea that I want to be an individual and I want to show off my individuality, and I want to be a part of a community, and I want to be one of the people who found something first before the rest of the world found it. And, um, I want things of beauty and I want to support artists and creativity. This is nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing new. Um, and what you have is you just have a new technology with which to achieve that. Therefore it's inevitable. Um, but it takes time.
Speaker 2 00:25:23 You know, I, I always, you know, I, I always say my belief is all these things always from the moment you can imagine them to the moment they become kind of real on a big scale. It's 15 years. And the problem is, is that everyone always thinks it's 15 months, but it's never 15 months. You know, in the nineties, I took a, you know, a souped up personal computer and connected it to a television and started using it to watch, um, you know, long form video that I was downloading off the internet. From that moment to the time my mom called me and said, oh, I just canceled my cable subscription and bought a Roku. I was like, ah. And that was 15 years between those two things. And I remember thinking, that's how long it takes, 15 years from when you're like, this is inevitable to this happened. Right. So I think, you know, we're, we're kind of, you know, 2021, um, you know, to 2036. You know, that's, that's, that's the timeframe. So No, no, no rush. No rush. What,
Speaker 1 00:26:24 What developments in Web three in in this space are you most excited by personally?
Speaker 2 00:26:31 Um, you know, I, I think, you know, some of the ones I just mentioned, I, I think for me, I, I, I think you have to look at the big arc. You know, we have, there's a new human invention, um, which is digital scarcity that moves us into a revolution of, of value that is the one that comes on the heels of a revolution of information. I think this is a true technological revolution. Um, you know, and, and I mean that in the context of, there's a book by Carlotta Perez, um, which is an economics book, and it has the, the catchy title of technological revolutions and financial capital. Um, but what it describes is, you know, that you have these technological revolutions, like the Industrial revolution, automotive, the silicon chip, the internet. It was written in 2002, and you always get a bubble, um, a gold rush, a bubble, the bubble bursts, and then you get kind of 30 years of, of, of sustained growth.
Speaker 2 00:27:23 I, I think that that leads us from, you know, digital money, um, to, you know, digital collectibles, uh, to all of these, you know, different use cases in our lives. Like, you know, digital tickets, digital identity, um, you know, uh, ultimately digital products. Um, you know, why does someone buy a t-shirt from Supreme is because they're cold and they needed something to put on. Like, I, I don't think so, and I also don't think it's because of the cotton that the shirt is made out of <laugh>, you know, um, any more than somebody buys a Basquiat or that a Basquiat has value, um, because of the, the, the, the value of the wood and the paint, right? You know, when you're buying into Supreme, and we can't deny that it's a real company that makes real money and it has backing from, you know, is bought by one of the, you know, the biggest private equity funds on the planet, uh, recently or somewhat, somewhat recently, you know, so it certainly has value, but also, again, it, it's, you know, people don't buy a Supreme t-shirt because it's a t-shirt that you put on your body and it keeps you warm.
Speaker 2 00:28:30 You know, you buy it because you're buying into a community. It, it means something. There's scarcity, there's creative collaborations. It releases every Friday morning. There's sold out by noon. There's a line at the store. You know, all of this storytelling goes, goes into it. So I, I think that this is what happens is that these sort of, these same sort of things, they come, you know, at a much bigger scale. So the kind of things that excite me, I mean, are some of the, the very basic things. Like I would love to see the 3% tax that, that, um, really is paid by the poorest people. Um, you know, I get credit card, I get, I get, you know, I, I get paid Bitcoin for my credit card purchases, you know, uh, the, the, the retailers and the people who don't have the, the, the same sort of financial situation as me, um, get taxed by the current kind of credit card system.
Speaker 2 00:29:18 Right. Um, and, you know, I think that, uh, that make it, watching that change will be incredibly satisfying for me. But also seeing people adopt, um, you know, digital luxury products, you know, the, the, the role that, um, you know, the role that these digital collectibles play in our lives, um, will be similar to the one that the physical collectibles play in our lives. I mean, again, you know, know people that have a watch collection. I doubt they're wearing their collection every day, right? Somebody owns 10 watches. I think they're probably wearing maximum one a day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I bet that there are ones in their collection that they never wear,
Speaker 1 00:29:53 You know? I
Speaker 2 00:29:54 Think so. Yeah. You know, and, and so I think that these digital collectibles will play that same role. So, you know, watching that play out and seeing what that means, um, you know, in, in, and, and by the way, let, let's, we, we like to think that we're, we're these sovereign creatures and technology is our tool, but that's not really the case. You know, I mean, we're, you know, technology plays roles in our lives that I think make us, make many of us, myself included, you know, somewhat uncomfortable. We can't deny it. Yeah. You know? Um, and, and so I think, you know, watching, watching some of these things become, you know, part of our daily lives, um, will be fun, exciting, interesting. You know, from my perspective, cuz you really are watching, you know, evolution in real time. Right?
Speaker 1 00:30:39 I, I'm interested to know whether you think that there's also like an environmental imperative to this in so far as, you know, we produce so much physical stuff and there's obviously having a detrimental impact on our environment. Um, does it, does Web three kind of prevent a solution, present a solution to that?
Speaker 2 00:30:58 No, I'm, I'm not so sure it's, it's, um, it's worth thinking about. Uh, you know, I mean even the fact that, you know, Ethereum has now moved to proof of stake from proof of work has erased a lot of the, a lot of the environmental concerns around crypto generally. Hmm. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that, that, that, that has like, left the conversation at least when it comes to Ethereum and NFTs and Collectibles. Um, but, you know, I, I wouldn't, the, the thing is, is that it, it really depends on, on what it is. Um, you know, and, and I'm not sure exactly how this applies for commodities, you know, for example, you know, I, I fast fashion is a much bigger contributor to this kind of like, too much stuff problem than say luxury is right. Luxury, luxury goods are much more scarce. Um, you know, they're, they're generally kind of, you know, the aim from luxury companies is to be sold out and not, you know, and not putting things into landfills.
Speaker 2 00:31:51 You know, not that that's always the case, but that's definitely the, the, the aim. And it's not like, you know, luxury watches are really contributing to the kind of too much stuff problem on the planet. Yeah. You know, um, so, you know, I'm not, I'm not quite sure. I, I think, you know, I look at it more like, I think, you know, actually ticketing, let's look at concert tickets, um, as just an interesting part of the evolution. So I don't think this really is an E S g, um, issue because it's not like concert tickets are, are, are the problem, you know, that we have in the environment. But I do think that there's something, you know, there's like an interesting evolution, which I just think points more of the direction this will go. You know, if you think about, you know, again, I'm 50 years old, so when I was a kid and I would go see a concert, you know, with my parents or my brother or sister, you know, I would take that ticket and I would like put it on my cork board, you know?
Speaker 2 00:32:38 Um, cuz it was like, yeah, I went there, it was a big deal to go to a concert. Now, you know, what, what's the internet done? It's made concerts, these things that you print out. Um, and they have a half page ad on them because, you know, primarily the internet has br given us like, you know, hyper advertising everywhere we look. Right. Including on our concert tickets. That concert ticket I had on my wall when I was 13 years old did not have an advertisement on it. Right. Um, you know, but, but the one that I printed out last night to go see Stereo Lab, uh, here in Paris did, so, and then of course, did I keep the ticket? No. I threw that ticket away as soon as I could because it was ugly and you had had the utility to get me in the door, and then I didn't need it anymore and I didn't want it anymore.
Speaker 2 00:33:19 But tomorrow that ticket will be a collectible and it will be sort of like proof of life, you know? Mm-hmm. Yes. I went, look at me, I went to this. Imagine if you had a N F T for every concert ticket you've ever had in your life, and you had a collection of those somewhere. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I know people that have a basket of concert tickets at home still, right? From, from the, from the seventies, eighties and nineties. Um, you know what, if I had an N F T for every, you know, concert t-shirt I'd ever owned, would it be valuable? I don't know. That's not the point. This is not, don't like, you know, I think that's the other thing that people need to remember. Like, money is boring. Like most people don't like money. Right. Um, you know, that, that's part of the reason you, you, you buy a watch because it's actually something cool you can do with your money to buy a piece of art and a piece of craft instead of like looking at numbers in a bank account mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:34:08 Um, you know, so I think that that, that actually, you know, there's, um, there, I think the, the, the one thing that's relevant to your question here is that if we, you know, coming back to my photos on my wall versus photos on Instagram, I think we can all see now that, and it was not possible at the time. There were plenty of people who, when, you know, people were posting on Instagram were like, I don't get it. I don't like digital photos, blah. Now I think we can see pretty clearly that there's an order of magnitude more, whatever you want to call it, you could say opportunity. You could just say visibility, just to keep it really simple in posting something digital versus having something physical. Um, so I think that, you know, two things will, will be true. One, we will have digital collectibles that help us express our identity the same way that, you know, fashion, luxury goods, cars, et cetera, help us, um, you know, enjoy life, express our identity, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:35:08 Also though, in-person experiences will become more premium. It's already happened. You know, I mean, you know, you, you, you, you can, you know that we, we we value getting together in person more post covid than we did before. You know, it's more special. So I think both things can be true. You know, if we're, if we're living eight to 12 hours a day in worlds like you and I are in right now, I actually have no idea where in the world you are <laugh>, right? In London. You're in London, okay. I did not know, and I didn't even think to ask until now, it's irrelevant because we're not, we're living in a, in a, in a virtual world right now, or in a, in a borderless world, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it doesn't, you know, you and I are not under the same government right now, and it, I was in London earlier this week, it's a pain on the ass to go to London from, from, you know, from France.
Speaker 2 00:35:57 You know, you've gotta go through those two little glass boxes at Garino and the, and the same at St. Pancreas, right? Um, you know, but here we are. Boom, I click a link and I'm talking to you. So if we're spending eight to 12 hours a day in that world, you and I getting together for a drink at a pub in London, the value of that just went up. Right. You know, it went up. So I think both things will be true. I think we'll have these digital collectibles to sort of show who we are in our, in our digital lives, which is unquestionable. We will, on some level leave digital lives. Um, but also we will put a very high premium on things that are real. Hmm. Um, you know, so I don't think they're mutually exclu exclusive.
Speaker 1 00:36:37 It's interesting you talk about, um, kind of NFTs NFT tickets or, or, or whatever being proof of life. Um, and it's almost like kind of legacy building digitally somehow. I mean, what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 2 00:36:50 Man, it's, that's a great, it's a great question. Um, I think, you know, for me, for whatever reason, I, I've, I'm, I'm just, I've always been curious and just wondering, you know, what's next? I've also always been the executive producer sitting next to someone creative. And I think in terms of legacy, I would love to have been that. I think it's why I, um, genuine genuinely look up to the Arno family so much because they have been these, um, executive producers behind a lot of creativity in the world. Um, they also, you know, genuinely stick behind creative people. You know, they find someone as talented as Jonathan Anderson and, um, and they believe in him and they give him the resources to make many of his dreams come true. And, you know, for me, I, I, I think, you know, having worked with people, you know, like the Beastie Boys and Jimmy Iovine and Peter Goer and Dave Goldberg and, you know, the Arno family, I would, I would like my personal legacy to be somewhere in that, which is to say, um, you know, this is somebody who believed in creativity deeply and, you know, always tried to, you know, push things forward to connect, uh, creative people with their audience, whatever that audience is.
Speaker 2 00:38:14 You know, the motivation for me is, you know, I was a person that, I was a kid that was into punk rock and skateboarding in a small town in Indiana in the, in the eighties. And, you know, the things that I wanted, I couldn't get, you know, I, they were not available on the radio, they weren't available on mtv, they weren't available at the, the stores and the town that I grew up in, I really had to search for them. You know, it was like I would, you know, drive an hour to get a copy of Maximum Rock and Roll Magazine and then order albums, mail order out of the back by sending checks that my mom wrote. So the internet to me is like an antidote to that, right? It's this place where you have a, a much more perfect marketplace between, um, people who make things and people who like things.
Speaker 2 00:38:57 You know, I used to say in the music business, there's only two people who actually matter in the music business. People who make music and people who love music, and those of us that were in the music business are literally in the way, right? So our job is to provide value to those two ends of the value chain. And so I feel the same way in, in all cases, you know, there are creative people and there are people who appreciate things that they create and that that's not, you know, there'll always be more aspirin. You know, there are a hundred million songs on Apple music and there are only a million songs that people truly love. So there will always be more aspirants than there are, you know, success stories. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But that doesn't lead us to say, oh, music is garbage. Like, no, we believe that music is creativity, it's self-expression.
Speaker 2 00:39:44 And I think that that'll be the case in all creative endeavors. You know? Um, I don't even think that NFTs are themselves a creative endeavor. I think it's just a canvas. And we know that anytime you give creative people a canvas, it's a matter of time before they blow your mind. So what I would like to be in my legacy is somebody who kind of pushed forward new canvases, new ways of cr of connecting creative people and their audiences knowing that not everyone will succeed. Of course, that's always the case. Um, you know, but, but there will be many exceptions that prove the rule, you know, and I, that's the part I love about creative endeavors. If you'd have told me 20 years ago that, um, you know, the kid in the wheelchair from Degrassi High television program was who is, uh, you know, in from Toronto would become the biggest, you know, music star on the planet, by the way, I'm talking about Drake.
Speaker 2 00:40:42 I would've said absolutely not. There's no way that a child actor from Toronto is going to be the king of the rap world. Like that makes no sense. But that's exactly what happened, and that's why I love creativity. You know, it's, it's like, it's unpredictable. Um, and, you know, there are, there's just like, there's this amazing, beautiful thing, you know, when it works, you know, I've heard the story, um, directly of, um, Ben, I know hiring John Galliano, and it's a beautiful story. Um, it's a story of belief in creativity. So I guess on some level, I think for me, if, if, you know, if I'm remembered as somebody who, you know, believed in creativity and tried to push it forward technically, then, then, you know, I'll be satisfied. And hopefully my kids will go, yeah, he was a pretty cool guy and he had a pretty cool life.
Speaker 1 00:41:38 That's a fantastic answer. Um, so we should maybe talk a little bit, we've talked about your watch already. Um, obviously you have the N F T is the nft, um, face, right? So Yep. What, let's, and is that something that's available to all, tell, tell me a bit about what that means for the wider luxury watch industry. Um, if indeed it means anything.
Speaker 2 00:42:01 You know, I I think that the, um, the tag team did an incredible job with this. I, I sat with Frederick Garnell at the beginning of 2021, and we had a conversation about this. Um, and you know, and I, you know, my, my my point of view was, was the one that I expressed earlier that, you know, what I realized is these N F T communities, whether it's crypto punks or dead fellows or board apes or whatever, you know, the, the people in these communities are incredibly passionate. Um, I also realized that, you know, if I'm a dead fellow's owner, which I am, I don't want a dead fella's t-shirt, I actually want my dead fella, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so that, that's where I think the watch face thing comes in. I think also, you know, you look at like what, what tag did with the Mario, um, release as an example.
Speaker 2 00:42:50 So you sell a limited edition watch, but then the, the watch face, which was actually quite cool, it wasn't just a picture of Mario, it's like, it's, it's, it has a behavior. It changes throughout the day. The more you walk, the faster he walks. At the end of the day, he climbs a flagpole. Like it's really, really, really cool. It's actually cooler than a crypto punk mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Like it's, it's, um, it's almost, uh, it's got behavior, you know? Um, but you're sort of giving it away. And, and the, the thing that really occurred to me was, well, wait a minute. Imagine if instead of that thing being kind of an unlimited edition, if that, you know, that watch face, that that very cool interactive digital watch face was a itself a limited edition. Right? Um, and I think that's, you know, so I think it's great that we've gone from kind of unlimited additions to limited additions where I can take things that I own and I bought, you know, I can go on a marketplace right now and buy something and, and, and have, and then boom, I can make it on my watch.
Speaker 2 00:43:47 And if it's a one of one, guess what? You can't have that on your watch in the same way. Right? That's cool. I think there's a another opportunity beyond this though, which is that the watch faces, which tag creates, which are, which are quite, you know, which are quite cool, and actually in many ways more interesting than a static image, um, that I can buy on opens sea, um, you know, for those to be themselves limited editions and kind of coveted. So, you know, you've got, I've got a watch as a carrier, but then, you know, I, like, for example, there's a great fine artist named dk, D e e k A Y. He just had a, a very successful sale at Sotheby's based on a series he'd done called Let's Walk. They're really cool pieces. You can look up dk, let's Walk Sotheby's, you'll find, find a lot about it.
Speaker 2 00:44:29 It's, um, but like, you'll see what I mean when you see the art. Now imagine that as like a fully interactive watch face. Mm-hmm. Right? So I can take my DK and put a static image of my DK on the watch, but imagine that as a fully interactive watch face, right? And, and when you've got an artist who can sell pieces for, you know, if, if it's an addition of 25, they'll go for roughly, you know, two to $5,000 and a one of one by DK will go for $200,000 plus. Right? So, I mean, this is very analogous to, you know, you know, a a a less rare watch, you know, would go for what, three to $5,000 if it's a high quality watch and a very rare watch, um, would go for $200,000 plus. Mm. Okay. You know, I, I, I really see, you know, an an, uh, you know, an analogy and an, and an angle, um, here that I think will be, you know, quite relevant, you know, in, in, if you think about it in, in kind of the behavior of watch collectors, right? Why does somebody buy the Muhammad Ali, um, you know, Jaguar watch? Mm-hmm. It's not to tell the time. That's not why they bought it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, so, you know, I think that yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a big, big connection in overlapping.
Speaker 1 00:45:44 Fantastic. Ian Rogers, chief Experience Officer of Ledger, thank you so much for joining me at the Edge. Uh, it's been absolutely enlightening and brilliant to speak to you. Um, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 00:45:55 My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Really, really an honor to talk to you.
Speaker 1 00:45:58 Pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Edge. If you'd like to hear from other extraordinary visionaries, athletes, or artists, you can find more episodes of the Edge wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us five stars. It does make a difference. Thank you so much to Ian Rogers for joining us. I'm your host, Teo Vanka, and I'll be back next month with another episode of The Edge, a podcast by Tag Hoyer. See you soon.
